Thoughts on high mileage Vette's?

John and Angie

Regular user
Hello all,
I am seriously considering purchasing a C6 Corvette but wanted your opinions on high mileage examples. This particular car has 130k on the clock but seems to have been meticulously maintained with a large amount of the essential/larger items that can go wrong having been replaced or addressed. How long (with care) should an LS be good for as a rough guide?

Thanks for your thoughts and I will keep you posted.

John and Angie
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
One friend of mine has a 2002 C5 Z06 and has over 240,000 miles on it and has not had to repair internals of the LS6 engine
Says if burns little amount of oil and has not really had to replace anything other than normal service
My 1999 C5 which has a lot of LS1 mods, the only real expense in last 20 years was to replace the clutch, and we know why that is :)

Both pass US smog tests to this day
Corvettes since the late C4s really are bullets and can out live us

Go to website like this to see what type of GM TSBs and federal recalls were for the year/model you're getting
GM TSBs

Go to this GM website and put the Corvettes VIN# in, and it will then tell you all GM fixes and software updates
that Corvette should have and then print that out and when at a GM repair shop they could read your controllers
to see what fixes were done to compare to the list you had saved and printed out

Controller software updates status
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
How many owners?
Where's the car been?
What's the evidence for the meticulous maintenance?
What are the essential/larger items that have been done?

Leaving all of that aside a modern LS should run for ever.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK regional rep
Hi John & Angie , I can`t speak from personal experience of a C6 but a high mileage fastidiously maintained car is usually a far better buy than a very low mileage car that gets infrequent use and only short journeys . How old is the C6 ? if a 2005 model that equates to less than 10,000 miles a year which is not excessive . Modern cars complex electronic systems don`t cope with lonf periods of inactivity .
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
You need to have a chat with our 'tame' race driver, Dave Smitheram - his was a high miler and since he has owned it and taken it around many race tracks is even higher mileage now.
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
Go to this GM website and put the Corvettes VIN# in, and it will then tell you all GM fixes and software updates
that Corvette should have and then print that out and when at a GM repair shop they could read your controllers
to see what fixes were done to compare to the list you had saved and printed out

Controller software updates status
OK, so I enter my VIN and what comes up is,

Please select,
(Example) "K19 Suspension Control Module".

But what next? Clicking on it doesn't seem to select anything.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
On upper left click on function, then click NEXT
when you get to this next screen like this you either can select one controller or
at bottom left click on "complete History " and then it will make a full report for this VIN # all the GM TSB software updates
GM felt was needed for that vehicle
So this website is for all controllers' software updates and versions
Then with a GM tool like a Tech-II could read each controller and see if and what updates were done by the versions numbers

vintsb.jpg
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
So when I clicked on "complete history" it makes a report for in this case a 2001 Corvette


GM Vehicle Calibration Information​

VIN:1G1YY12SX35101868
Controller:PCM/VCM Powertrain/Vehicle Control Module
Function:Programming

Calibration History for: Operating system

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
12593358N/A-New software to correct fuel disable feature not functioning after a battery disconnect or BCM loss of communication. Per Product Safety Campaign 04006A. Replaces 12202088, 12212156 and 12221588.

Calibration History for: Engine

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
935867300009C62-New calibration to reduce spark knock
935858500005E8B-Engine calibration

Calibration History for: Engine diagnostic

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
93589640000CDFF-Engine diagnostic calibration

Calibration History for: Transmission

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
935832400003C30-Transmission calibration to replace calibration 09358245 for 2001 vehicles

Calibration History for: Diagnostic

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
1626444300003F92-Transmission Diagnostic

Calibration History for: Fuel system

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
162647030000F152-New calibration to address customer complaints of erratic fuel gauge and improved handling of DTC P1431. Replaces calibration 16264618 for 2001 vehicles.
16264675000016C0-Fuel system calibration

Calibration History for: System

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
937356600003E06-System calibration

Calibration History for: SPEEDOMETER

Part Number CVN Bulletin # Description
93621580000EF7C-Speedometer calibration that replaces calibration 09362077 for 2001 vehicles.
 
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teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Each time there is a new software TSB then the part number (version) and CVN (checksum) is changed
By knowing what all the versions were and what they do then by using like a Tech-II a dealer, shop, owner can read their controllers
and see if those newest part numbers match and if not then have the Tech-II do those updates
 

John and Angie

Regular user
How many owners?
Where's the car been?
What's the evidence for the meticulous maintenance?
What are the essential/larger items that have been done?

Leaving all of that aside a modern LS should run for ever.
With rare features such as F55 Magnetic Suspension ($1,700 option), Morimoto C7 Style LED Headlights ($1,400), American Racing Headers with Sports Cats, Sniper Backbox, Bilstein Z06 Damper Upgrade (£1,000), Z51 Sway Bar Upgrade. Harmonic Balancer, renewed torque tube bearings and couplers, new ABS module, new brake pads all round, Engine + Gearbox and Diff Oil all changed, Ferrari Pista inspired Stripes, Yellow Brake Calipers, Tinted Side Markers etc. New plugs and oils along with KNN panel filters. New battery and all belts replaced.
The guy was kind enough to send me a 30 min walk-around video with very detailed points (good and bad such as stone chips etc...) so I feel quite comfortable. Its on a 69 plate (2006) so circa 8-9k miles per year in truth. He has owned it for 2 years and was imported from Japan.
Thanks for the help everyone.
John
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
On upper left click on function, then click NEXT
OK, so what you mean is,
* Click in the list to highlight a relevant controller
* Then click "next" at top right
* Then in Function (top left) highlight "programming" and click "next"
* Then click the Complete History box (lower left)

Most of the choices offered in the choice boxes I don't understand and, I must be honest, the full reports go over my head! However, it looks as though they may be useful to someone with full tech knowledge.

By the way, if you want to look at a different controller you have to go out and go back in again. You can't look sequentially at different controllers - so make sure you keep your full VIN easily to hand for copy and paste....
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
The fact it has ARH and not the stock CATs
I highly suggest you assure the car can pass any smog tests before buying it
In the USA, long tube headers are illegal as they move smog functions like the 4 O2 sensors further downstream
which violates smog rules

Also, the CATs would be illegal as here they require the CATs to have a valid CARB sticker to show the CATs were tested
and approved for federal standards
Being they are long tubed headers means the O2 sensors are moved and in most cases then the wiring has to be cut and made longer which causes the O2s to run cooler as they are now further downstream and the O2s may report what the AFR is incorrectly

IF it was me I would require

1. Using OBD-II scanner, assure there are NO DTCs
2. Using the scanner, do the I/M smog tests and assure all smog functions are in a complete state (incomplete is failed)
3. With scanner in record mode a testrun is done and then analyze the data as to

  1. Proper long and short-term fuel trims.
  2. That those fuel trims are balanced left/right (Heads)
  3. All 4 O2 sensors are functional and reporting correctly and balanced left/right and up and downstream of CATs
  4. Very little engine knock
  5. Very little misfires.
  6. Torque is reporting correctly
  7. This is what I do as a business for decades and I cannot count on people buying a GM vehicle and then cannot get it to pass smog testing and without that cannot register the car or get plates for it
ARHs have been known to have cracked welds and if so that causes exhaust leaks that cause the O2s to report incorrectly and the PCM then is wrongly commanding the wrong AFR for the fuel injectors

Lastly to put long tube headers on then really requires the PCM be custom tuned, if not then the engine will not run the best and if tuned
you need to make sure the tuner did NOT lock the PCM as if so your F'd when someone like me would want to fix the tune but is locked out

Any questions on this, ask away . . .

JR
 
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teamzr1

Supporting vendor
OK, so what you mean is,
* Click in the list to highlight a relevant controller
* Then click "next" at top right
* Then in Function (top left) highlight "programming" and click "next"
* Then click the Complete History box (lower left)

Most of the choices offered in the choice boxes I don't understand and, I must be honest, the full reports go over my head! However, it looks as though they may be useful to someone with full tech knowledge.

By the way, if you want to look at a different controller you have to go out and go back in again. You can't look sequentially at different controllers - so make sure you keep your full VIN easily to hand for copy and paste....

Stingray your welcome to send me the VIN # any way you like,
I then will analyze and then tell you what updates or changes were made to your vehicle to that VIN #
So you understand what changes GM wanted to correct for that vehicle and possible past owners never went and had those
controller software fixes and updates done. . .

JR
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
He has owned it for 2 years and was imported from Japan.

I'm a cautious guy. It's a 15 year old car with modifications. I'd want to see a service history all the way back to day one, not least because there will be no MOT mileages recorded in UK for the first 13 years of its life. Mind you, I'd struggle to read Japanese...

As ever, check the interior carefully. Corvette seats aren't famous for long life. And make sure all the switches/gauges/aircon are working correctly.

At the end of the day if you like the drive and the price is right it might be a good buy. If the car felt either "slack" (worn out) or "harsh" (overly aggressive modifications) on a test drive I'd run away.
 

John and Angie

Regular user
The fact it has ARH and not the stock CATs
I highly suggest you assure the car can pass any smog tests before buying it
In the USA, long tube headers are illegal as they move smog functions like the 4 O2 sensors further downstream
which violates smog rules

Also, the CATs would be illegal as here they require the CATs to have a valid CARB sticker to show the CATs were tested
and approved for federal standards
Being they are long tubed headers means the O2 sensors are moved and in most cases then the wiring has to be cut and made longer which causes the O2s to run cooler as they are now further downstream and the O2s may report what the AFR is incorrectly

IF it was me I would require

1. Using OBD-II scanner, assure there are NO DTCs
2. Using the scanner, do the I/M smog tests and assure all smog functions are in a complete state (incomplete is failed)
3. With scanner in record mode a testrun is done and then analyze the data as to

  1. Proper long and short-term fuel trims.
  2. That those fuel trims are balanced left/right (Heads)
  3. All 4 O2 sensors are functional and reporting correctly and balanced left/right and up and downstream of CATs
  4. Very little engine knock
  5. Very little misfires.
  6. Torque is reporting correctly
  7. This is what I do as a business for decades and I cannot count on people buying a GM vehicle and then cannot get it to pass smog testing and without that cannot register the car or get plates for it
ARHs have been known to have cracked welds and if so that causes exhaust leaks that cause the O2s to report incorrectly and the PCM then is wrongly commanding the wrong AFR for the fuel injectors

Lastly to put long tube headers on then really requires the PCM be custom tuned, if not then the engine will not run the best and if tuned
you need to make sure the tuner did NOT lock the PCM as if so your F'd when someone like me would want to fix the tune but is locked out

Any questions on this, ask away . . .

JR
Thanks for the comprehensive response, wow! All I know is that the car is being sold by a reputable car dealership and the director of the company owns this car personally. It would come with a valid UK MOT certificate, but I really do not understand the intricacies of any mods. I would assume that as it has passed an MOT the headers would be fine, but I really grateful for your time and help as it has made me think with the head, not my heart! Regards, John
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Thanks for the comprehensive response, wow! All I know is that the car is being sold by a reputable car dealership and the director of the company owns this car personally. It would come with a valid UK MOT certificate, but I really do not understand the intricacies of any mods. I would assume that as it has passed an MOT the headers would be fine, but I really grateful for your time and help as it has made me think with the head, not my heart! Regards, John

I doubt any seller would go into the depth to know how solid the vehicle is and if in future needing smog testing if it would pass or not, nor cares if engine is functioning for best performance
Not trying to scare you but to learn enough to ask the questions of the seller before you make up your mind in spending the money

But I see bad design and tuning many times when mods are done for so-called performance gains and end up people coming to me to clean the mess-up
One example, so you understand what happens with long tube headers and today's engines that have lots of feed-back sensors reporting to the PCM (Powertrain Control Module)

Here I selected a 2008 base C6 that had headers installed and not tuning or bad tuning was done and failed I/M smog tests

The front O2s are the BIG boss, what it reports to the PCM dictates how it will command in part the fuel trims

Many times the bung (welded to exhaust pipe and O2s screw in) that one was mounted further downstream than the other

GM labels (Bank 1, left head, Bank 2 right head)
PCM is adjusting how long the fuel injectors are being commanded ON and does so by math the PCM is doing as what front O2s report (these are upstream of the CATs)

PCM keeps running tables and adjusts as to Short term (as that instant) and Long term which is over a period of time

Let's just stick with the Long-term fuel trims (LTFT) B1 and S1

The raw data inside the PCM I collect while owner is driving the C6 and I then can analyze that data

The engine is broken up into 23 different engine conditions, which we call "fuel cells"
This would be like cold, hot starts, A/C on or off, at idle, part throttle, decel (lifting off gas pedal) WOT,etc
Cannot treat them the same as to timing, fuel, torque, airmass, etc

So lets how this C6 with LT headers was doing

In perfect world of LTFTs the number would be ZERO, meaning not lean, not rich
Positive values mean lean, the larger the value is the leaner it is
Negative values mean rich, so a -10 would be 10% too rich

Here we see the fuel trims, far left is almost no engine load and as going to the right is more and more load, torque, etc

As you see the LTFTB2 is way leaner then LTFTB1, so there is an imbalance left to right heads
Those fuel trims should have been way closer to zero and balanced B1/B2

As it is you see how lean this engine is running and that kills performance as it does further below this chart
Trims.jpg

Being that lean causing engine knock, which the PCM reacts to be yanking up to 15 degrees of timing,
It then has a latency, and time it takes for knock to decay and then PCM commanding higher timing, so every knock this
game goes on
Here is the knock counts during this testrun :
Lot of knock and worse when getting into higher engine load
Knock.jpg


So in the end my ONLY point is ASK the seller the questions and almost due to cost of buying Corvettes the best case is one that is local so
you or some smart guy with a OBD-II scanner can tell within a few mins if this is a buy, or it will be a money burner
The only dumb question is the one people do not ask

Lastly due to long tune header move all downstream, many times then the wiring for the 2 downstream O2s are too short and some wise
guy cheats and shitcans the rear ones and in tunes hides that by turning off the DTC for the S2 O2s (after the CATs)
Being I am a two finger typer ........................
Class dismissed :)
 

John and Angie

Regular user
I doubt any seller would go into the depth to know how solid the vehicle is and if in future needing smog testing if it would pass or not, nor cares if engine is functioning for best performance
Not trying to scare you but to learn enough to ask the questions of the seller before you make up your mind in spending the money

But I see bad design and tuning many times when mods are done for so-called performance gains and end up people coming to me to clean the mess-up
One example, so you understand what happens with long tube headers and today's engines that have lots of feed-back sensors reporting to the PCM (Powertrain Control Module)

Here I selected a 2008 base C6 that had headers installed and not tuning or bad tuning was done and failed I/M smog tests

The front O2s are the BIG boss, what it reports to the PCM dictates how it will command in part the fuel trims

Many times the bung (welded to exhaust pipe and O2s screw in) that one was mounted further downstream than the other

GM labels (Bank 1, left head, Bank 2 right head)
PCM is adjusting how long the fuel injectors are being commanded ON and does so by math the PCM is doing as what front O2s report (these are upstream of the CATs)

PCM keeps running tables and adjusts as to Short term (as that instant) and Long term which is over a period of time

Let's just stick with the Long-term fuel trims (LTFT) B1 and S1

The raw data inside the PCM I collect while owner is driving the C6 and I then can analyze that data

The engine is broken up into 23 different engine conditions, which we call "fuel cells"
This would be like cold, hot starts, A/C on or off, at idle, part throttle, decel (lifting off gas pedal) WOT,etc
Cannot treat them the same as to timing, fuel, torque, airmass, etc

So lets how this C6 with LT headers was doing

In perfect world of LTFTs the number would be ZERO, meaning not lean, not rich
Positive values mean lean, the larger the value is the leaner it is
Negative values mean rich, so a -10 would be 10% too rich

Here we see the fuel trims, far left is almost no engine load and as going to the right is more and more load, torque, etc

As you see the LTFTB2 is way leaner then LTFTB1, so there is an imbalance left to right heads
Those fuel trims should have been way closer to zero and balanced B1/B2

As it is you see how lean this engine is running and that kills performance as it does further below this chart
View attachment 13971

Being that lean causing engine knock, which the PCM reacts to be yanking up to 15 degrees of timing,
It then has a latency, and time it takes for knock to decay and then PCM commanding higher timing, so every knock this
game goes on
Here is the knock counts during this testrun :
Lot of knock and worse when getting into higher engine load
View attachment 13972


So in the end my ONLY point is ASK the seller the questions and almost due to cost of buying Corvettes the best case is one that is local so
you or some smart guy with a OBD-II scanner can tell within a few mins if this is a buy, or it will be a money burner
The only dumb question is the one people do not ask

Lastly due to long tune header move all downstream, many times then the wiring for the 2 downstream O2s are too short and some wise
guy cheats and shitcans the rear ones and in tunes hides that by turning off the DTC for the S2 O2s (after the CATs)
Being I am a two finger typer ........................
Class dismissed :)
You are Gent! Thanks so much for the advice and help.
 

John and Angie

Regular user
Hi. Just thought I would update you on my recent conversation with the seller of the C6 with the ARH's. He has said that there are 2 types and the ones fitted have the Catalytic Converters fitted which makes it UK MOT friendly. He has just got the car tested and passed. He also mentioned that the C6 6 speed auto on a 2005 model is more reliable than the 4 speed 2005 and he was quite lucky to find a 6 speed on a 55 plate car. 4-speed models were evidently only made for 1 year as were unreliable? Will keep you updated as all your other comments and suggestions remain valid but I hope the ARH concern may have been resolved. I am very grateful for your help. Best wishes, John
 
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