Will modifying our Corvettes be illegal in the future?

V8Adam

Busy user
Hi everybody,
I am new to this forum, so apologies if this is in the wrong place. I wanted to let you guys know about some legislation that is being proposed in the UK, related to 'vehicle tampering':
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards#tackling-tampering

Now, whilst they do state:
We do not intend our proposals to:
  • prevent legitimate motorsport activities
  • prevent restoration, repairs or legitimate improvements to vehicles, such as classic cars or motorbikes
  • negatively impact businesses involved in these activities
It is still pretty worrying as the proposals are so vague. What if it is decided that emission control devices cannot be removed? Do we have to refit the useless smog pumps?

There is a petition here:
Petition: Do not implement proposed new offences for vehicle "tampering"

I believe this is worth signing to try and get to 100K signatures so that this issue is at least debated in parliament.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Monkey see, monkey do as it seems the UK is doing what has been law here in the USA for some time
A C3 here in the USA must maintain all smog parts and be functional

Taking off those parts like the CAT, smog pump, EGR, etc. is illegal and if caught is expensive
Newer OBD-II vehicles can be smog tested where the smog shops have a mini chassis dyno (treadmill)
and the vehicle is tested then on it for 240 seconds at 15 MPH and then 240 seconds at 25 MPH while connected
to OBD-II tool and an exhaust sniffer in muffler tailpipe.

Vehicle found to have mods, or smog parts off, the state labels it as a "gross polluter" and for 1 year the vehicle is
forced to do random smog tests, vehicle cannot be sold or transferred of the title.

State of the fruitcakes (California) has been able to dictate USA smog rules under their CAFE laws, those F'ers there
want people to go back to walking, and has forced nameplates to blow trillions of dollars to shitcan fuel engines and go electric :-(

Nameplates are so bad now that even if you paid for a vehicle, and you own it, they state you really do not own all of it
as the software and tunes in the controllers are "copyrighted" by the nameplate, and you cannot change the tunes in them
Where you may have E10 gas, here it is E15 and countless damage to older vehicles engines and less performance with that gas.

Nameplates like GM today are spying on the vehicles via ON-Star ( you know the crap that is based out of China) as to all aspects of the vehicle
and even goes so far as sending the driver an alert that they are speeding

So fight this crap as, if you allow it, it will get as bad as it is here.
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
As I see there are several alternative options.
1. Buy a late model car and leave 'as is'.
2. Buy a pre 72 - 75 car (or car that didn't have cat converter.
3. Any post 72 - 75 you'll need confirm it has all smog equipment fitted (unlikely unless a NCRS standard vehicle)....... or bale out of the purchase.
4. I would have thought that it would be very difficult for authorities to have detailed information on OEM fitted smog equipment on American cars - suspect that any 40 year old 'Historic' registered vehicle would be exempt from any mandatory smog laws in UK.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Since the late 1990s vehicles here in the USA required that there be on-board smog tests running inside
the Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
Here in the states, each county dictates what type of smog tests will be done
In most cases, the tech at the smog shop looks to see if the Check Engine Light (CEL) is off or on
If ON the vehicle fails right then and owner must fix the reason why light is on and then pay to smog test again

If no CEL then smog shop simply plugs in an error code reader into the diag DLC port and sees if any errors are stored related to engine
IF so then vehicle fails.

If no CEL or error codes then with a OBD-II scanner tool they look at the state of the on-board tests in the PCM
Most all states require all but one must be in a completed (Passed) state, if so then vehicle passes testing
If more than one is in a NON-complete state (Fail) vehicle fails

Here is those smog tests and results for my 1999 Corvette

im.jpg
As you see, all supported smog functions are in a complete, passed state

Except that is where I come in as to custom tuning
My C5 has no CATs, no smog pump, highly modified engine and if still having GM tune the tests would be in a failed NON-complete state,
CEL on and Errors tripped

I within custom tuning can make and vehicle pass smog testing (except if they do a visual check which most shops do not)
Makes no different as with the custom CAM I have to fuel injectors twice as large as stock ones I can make the vehicle pass.

If buying a vehicle that is mid 1990s and newer the best case is before buying is using a OBD-II scanner and see what state CEL, DTCs and on-board smog tests vehicle are in and if not someone needs to tune PCM so if vehicle would pass or do not buy that vehicle

Even if not for smog testing, looking at these gives you an idea how good or bad the engine functions.
 

V8Adam

Busy user
Wow I did not know that about America JR. It's very interesting to me that on the one hand it is 'live free, do what you want' but then there can be such tight control on certain things, like cars.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Wow I did not know that about America JR. It's very interesting to me that on the one hand it is 'live free, do what you want' but then there can be such tight control on certain things, like cars.

Adam,
it has gotten worse as those in control of the taxpayers want to rid all fuel based engines with electric ones.
GM states they want all new vehicles they make within next 3 years will be electric, including the Corvette called the "E-Ray"

GM has also since 2019 have locked the controllers like the PCM so bad that since 2018 no one has been able to crack the codes and hack the software
That F's up adding any types of mods not only for the engine but also the controller for the automatic tranny :-(

Just imagine if to charge these electric vehicles takes 220 A/C volts at 50 AMPs
Think of like 100 million of them as how much will be eaten to produce the power to do that plus the fact installing
these chargers to all home that do not even have the spare amperage to their service electric panel ?

So why the feds want to cause hell to taxpayers as to smog testing to piss them off and go with electric engines :-(
 

V8Adam

Busy user
I have heard all sorts of pros and cons and do not know much about it but a move to hydrogen seems more logical to me.
 

Forrest Gump

CCCUK regional rep
Hi everybody,
I am new to this forum, so apologies if this is in the wrong place. I wanted to let you guys know about some legislation that is being proposed in the UK, related to 'vehicle tampering':
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards#tackling-tampering

Now, whilst they do state:
We do not intend our proposals to:
  • prevent legitimate motorsport activities
  • prevent restoration, repairs or legitimate improvements to vehicles, such as classic cars or motorbikes
  • negatively impact businesses involved in these activities
It is still pretty worrying as the proposals are so vague. What if it is decided that emission control devices cannot be removed? Do we have to refit the useless smog pumps?

There is a petition here:
Petition: Do not implement proposed new offences for vehicle "tampering"

I believe this is worth signing to try and get to 100K signatures so that this issue is at least debated in parliament.
I did see an article about this and understood the legislation to be aimed not only about keeping a control on emissions but also the driverless / automated systems that some cars (eg Tesla’s) already have and which will become more commonplace in the future. You can see the point that tampering with these driverless systems or inadvertently affecting via some other well intended mod it is very dangerous territory.
 
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teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Neither the petition or the website says this is only about smog parts or only for newer vehicles

Petition says in part :
The Government’s modernising vehicle standards proposal suggested new offences for tampering with a system, part or component of a vehicle intended or adapted to be used on a road.
This could have a hugely detrimental impact on the UK motorsport and custom aftermarket industry.

Modified vehicles that are used on the roads are subject to the same MOT testing as all other road cars and there are therefore adequate safeguards to ensure modified vehicles are roadworthy.

The MOT also includes emissions testing, which ensure that modified cars do not breach emission standards.

GOV webpage says in part :

Tackling tampering​

We will create new offences for tampering with a system, part or component of a vehicle intended or adapted to be used on a road. This will enable us to address existing gaps in the legislation, ensuring cleaner and safer vehicles.
We will also create new offences for tampering with non-road mobile machinery (NRMM) and for advertising ‘tampering’ services or products.

This will strengthen our ability to enforce compliance in this area.

Specifically, we would look to create:
  • a specific offence for supplying, installing and/or advertising, a ‘tampering product’ for a vehicle or NRMM – this would apply where a principal effect of the product is to bypass, defeat, reduce the effectiveness of or render inoperative a system, part or component (the product may be a physical part or component, hardware and/or software)
  • a specific offence for removing, reducing the effectiveness of, or rendering inoperative a system, part or component for a vehicle/NRMM and advertising such services
  • a specific offence for allowing for use or providing a vehicle or NRMM that has had the operations described in the previous 2 points performed on it
  • a new power to require economic operators to provide information, where a service/product they have supplied amounts to or enables ‘tampering’ with a vehicle or NRMM – this would apply in any of the above senses and include requirements to provide relevant information on the quantities of products sold or modified
We would like to emphasise that our policy intention is to prevent modifications that have a negative impact on road safety, vehicle security and the environment.
 

CaptainK

CCCUK Member
I read about that a while back, it was mentioned on one of the historic cars / clubs websites. I forget which, but basically they went into depth and they said that this will be only for newer cars as the Government has no wish to affect classic cars in the UK, as they only account for a very small out of pollution - not worth worrying about. Especially so when the "classic car business" in total in the UK provides A LOT of money to the Government coffers, but its pollution is minimal.
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
I read about that a while back, it was mentioned on one of the historic cars / clubs websites. I forget which, but basically they went into depth and they said that this will be only for newer cars as the Government has no wish to affect classic cars in the UK, as they only account for a very small out of pollution - not worth worrying about. Especially so when the "classic car business" in total in the UK provides A LOT of money to the Government coffers, but its pollution is minimal.
Unfortunately that logic could be 'missed' by a number of green and lefty dominated local authorities. I see that Khan, London's mayor has decided to recind the timed extention to London's congestion charge - this had been extended to 10pm during the Covid crisis. From January it will be back to 7pm. Several of the London borough's have critised this move, commenting on his disregard for the heath of London residents from the increased pollution it will cause.
If London and other local authorities really wanted to reduce vehicular pollution to a more acceptable level should ban the use of Uber and similar 'gig' vehicle use including moped food deliveries and perhaps even Fed Express and other carriers unless delivering with electric vehicles.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
If you think you have it bad in the UK as stupid laws related to your vehicles try this crap announced today for here in USA :-(

In a major step to fight climate change, screw over Americans and Corvettes as we have known them, the Biden administration is raising vehicle mileage standards to significantly reduce emissions of planet-warming greenhouse gases.

A final rule being issued Monday would raise mileage standards starting in the 2023 model year, reaching a projected industry-wide target of 40 miles per gallon by 2026.
It's 25 percent higher than a rule finalized by the Trump administration last year and 5 percent higher than a proposal by the Environmental Protection Agency in August.
GOP Rep. Ralph Norman of South Carolina, on the House Environmental Committee said he opposed the rule.
'You cannot effectively fight climate change by suffocating the economy with onerous regulations.
Give the private sector a fighting chance to innovate our way to a cleaner and more efficient future,' Norman said.

'We are setting robust and rigorous standards that will aggressively reduce the pollution that is harming people and our planet and save families money at the same time,' EPA Administrator Michael Regan said in a statement.

Regan called the rule 'a giant step forward' in delivering on President Joe Biden´s climate agenda 'while paving the way toward an all-electric, zero-emissions transportation future.'

Donald Trump had lowered the 2026 goal to 32 miles per gallon from the 36 mpg set under the Obama administration in 2012.
In August the EPA proposed a 38.5 mpg standard by 2026.

The new rules would begin with the 2023 car model year and up emissions reductions year by year through model year 2026.
The rule accelerates the rate of emissions reductions to between 5 and 10 percent each year from 2023 through 2026, the EPA said, far higher than under both Trump and asshole Barack Obama.

Senate Environmental Committee Chair Tom Carper lauded the EPA's move as 'setting the stage' for a clean energy future.

Today’s final rule puts the nation back on track towards a clean transportation future. This rule will set the stage for the U.S. to lead the world in automotive technology and slash greenhouse gas emissions from cars and trucks by more than three billion tons in the decades to come,' Carper said.
'Investing in clean cars is a key way we are going to save our planet and grow our economy, and the Biden Administration’s announcement today will help make that happen.'

In its rule the EPA said it wasn't deviating from compliance and enforcement standards set in 2012, which require auto manufacturers to submit regular reports on new models' mpg. Companies found in violation could face penalties of up to $37,500 per vehicle.

The move comes a day after Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin delivered a potentially fatal blow to Biden's $2 trillion social and environmental policy bill, jeopardizing Democrats' agenda and infuriating the White House.

The West Virginia senator said he could not support the sweeping bill, which includes a host of climate proposals, saying it was too expensive and could spark inflation and expand the growing federal debt.

The now-stalled bill includes a $7,500 tax credit to buyers to lower the cost of electric vehicles.

However Biden's bipartisan infrastructure bill, which he signed into law last month, also seeks to improve EV accessibility by providing $7.5 billion to roll out a network of charging stations across the country.

The mileage rules being announced Monday are the most ambitious tailpipe pollution standards ever set for passenger cars and light trucks.
The standards also will help expand the market share of zero emissions vehicles, the administration said, with a goal of battery electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles reaching 17 percent of new vehicles sold in 2026.

EVs and plug-in hybrids are expected to have about 7 percent market share in 2023.

The EPA said the rule would not only slow climate change, but also improve public health by reducing air pollution and lower costs for drivers through improved fuel efficiency.

Biden set a goal of cutting U.S. greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2030 as he pushes a history-making shift in the U.S. from internal combustion engines to battery-powered vehicles.

He has urged that components needed to make that sweeping change - from batteries to semiconductors be made in the United States, too, aiming for both industry and union support for the environmental effort, with the promise of new jobs and billions in federal electric vehicle investments.

While ambitious, the new standards provide adequate lead time for auto manufacturers to comply at reasonable costs, the administration said. EPA's analysis shows the industry can comply with the final standards with modest increases in the numbers of electric vehicles entering the fleet.
Auto makers continue to invest in and develop zero-emissions vehicles to meet rising consumer demand, while making public commitments to build these vehicles in the future, the EPA said.

As tailpipe-pollution standards get stronger over four years, sales of EVs and plug-in hybrid vehicles will more than double, the administration projected.
Environmental and public health groups mostly hailed the new rules, while the trade association representing most major automakers reacted cautiously.

Automakers are 'committed to achieving a cleaner, safer, and smarter future,' but EPA's final rule for greenhouse gas emissions is more aggressive than originally proposed, 'requiring a substantial increase in electric vehicle sales, well above the 4 percent of all light-duty sales today,'' said John Bozzella, president and CEO of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation.

The group represents manufacturers producing nearly 99 percent of new cars and light trucks sold in the U.S.
'Achieving the goals of this final rule will undoubtedly require enactment of supportive governmental policies - including consumer incentives and support for U.S. manufacturing and supply chain development,' Bozella said in a statement.

EPA called the new rule critical to address climate change. Transportation is the single largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States, making up 29 percent of all emissions.
Within the transportation sector, passenger cars and trucks are the largest contributor, accounting for 58 percent of all transportation-related emissions and 17 percent of overall U.S. carbon emissions.

The final standards will contribute toward a goal set by the 2015 Paris climate agreement to keep the increase in the global average temperature to well below 2° Celsius above pre-industrial levels, the EPA said. The U.S. rejoined the Paris agreement on Biden's first day in office after former President Donald Trump had withdrawn the U.S. from the global pact.

Automakers say they will need government support to comply with final auto emissions rules detailed Monday by the Environmental Protection Agency, standards that are more stringent than those initially proposed and put in place under former Jack Off Barack Obama.

The move reflects months of pressure from environmental and public health groups to impose the strongest rule possible, including eliminating additional incentives and credits that make it easier for automakers to meet the standards.

The Biden administration is pushing the tougher rules as electric vehicles today remain a rarity on U.S. roads. Gas- and diesel-powered trucks and SUVs are fueling the tens of billions of dollars of investments each major automaker is making over the next few years for EVs and battery plants.

The tougher rules have job implications because EV and battery facilities are likely to employ fewer people and at lower wages since EVs have fewer components and are expected to last longer than their counterparts fitted with internal combustion engines.

"EPA’s final rule for greenhouse gas emissions is even more aggressive than originally proposed, requiring a substantial increase in electric vehicle sales, well above the four percent of all light-duty sales today," John Bozzella, CEO of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, said in a statement.

Under the final rule, the emissions reduction targets for 2023 to 2026 increase in stringency from 5% to 10% in each model year to reach a fuel-economy fleetwide average of 40 mpg in 2026, compared with 38 mpg under an August proposal.
The hikes from the initial proposal come during the latter two years, EPA Administrator Michael Regan said.

The rules represent the most stringent federal greenhouse gas emissions requirements to date and come after years of lower standards put in place by former President Donald Trump. Those regulations put the fleetwide target at 32 mpg.

"I'm proud to say that we're delivering on our commitment to the president of the United States," Regan said ahead of signing the final rule in the presence of electrified vehicles from each of Detroit's three automakers.
"We're delivering on our commitment to the American people by setting the most ambitious vehicle-pollution standards for greenhouse gases ever established for passenger cars and light-duty trucks."
 

CaptainK

CCCUK Member
For us lot on this side of the pond - 40 (US) Mpg converted to UK gallons is about 48 (UK) Mpg as a UK gallon is larger than a US gallon.

Out of interest, what is the current mileage standard in the US at the moment? And roughly what average MPG do you see out of your current normal vehicles? (Corvettes etc excluded).
 
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teamzr1

Supporting vendor
For us lot on this side of the pond - 40 (US) Mpg converted to UK gallons is about 48 (UK) Mpg as a UK gallon is larger than a US gallon.

Out of interest, what is the current mileage standard in the US at the moment? And roughly what average MPG do you see out of your current normal vehicles? (Corvettes etc excluded).

Current is 32 MPG so their F'ing new standard in just 4 years would be a 20 percent increase in MPG which cannot be met.
This is solely I think to push nameplates to build a crapload of electric vehicles

As it is here in the USA the same morons increased the percentage of Ethanol in gas to 15 percent which reduced fuel mileage even more
The obama gang bangers controlling the USA have also stopped oil production again, shows clearly the greenie (greedy) F'ers
intend to control the world by this rouse of "save the world" BS

Common sense knows here in the USA the electric power grids would not even come close to be able to support millions of electric vehicles
requiring a 50 plus AMP 220 Volt A/C charger much less the costs of having even the electric service panel to handle another 2 pole 50 AMP breaker and wiring to a location for the charger.
They will build all these vehicles and no fricking way to charge them :(

Imagine the costs when those batteries go bad and need replacements and that means the labor to even get to them as with the
C8 Corvette they will be hidden in the spine of the frame.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
General Motors Co. has delivered the first GMC Hummer EV pickups to customers, the automaker said Friday.

The $119,595 Edition 1 2022 Hummer made at GM's Factory Zero Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly Center is the first product released on the automaker's new Ultium electric platform.

GM President Mark Reuss told CNBC Friday that the company plans to make 1,200 Edition 1 Hummers and has about 17 ready to go to customers.

"We have a very rigorous quality process, so last night at about 10 p.m. the team opened the gate to ship," he said during an interview on CNBC's “Squawk on the Street." "We're very excited for our customers."

The first electric Hummer pickup was auctioned March 27, 2021, at Barret Jackson for $2.5 million with proceeds benefiting the Tunnel to Towers Foundation, an organization established to honor the memory of Sept. 11 first responder Stephen Siller. The foundation builds mortgage-free, accessible smart homes for veterans and provides mortgage-free homes for Gold Star families and the families of first responders killed on the job.

GM revealed the electrified Hummer in October 2020.

It offers features to differentiate it from the crowd, including a crab mode for diagonal driving.
The Hummer comes with up to 300 miles of range on a single charge. It has an open-air roof, and a 3.0-second 0-60 sprint when equipped with three electric motors.

GM claims the Hummer EV will generate the equivalent of 1,000 horsepower and deliver 11,500 pound-feet of torque.

GM also plans to deliver a $79,995 version of the pickup in spring 2024.
There also will be a $99,995 version coming out in the fall of 2022 and an $89,995 version in the spring of 2023.

A $105,595 Edition 1 Hummer SUV will come in early 2023 with an estimated 300-plus mile of range.

Due to the size of the USA it is common the average miles driven per driver is 15,000 per year
At only 300 miles range per battery charge and about 50 million vehicles in the USA alone means countless battery charges per year
with electric power plants running at capacity now and most power plants use natural GREEN resources to produce that power.
 
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