Any legal types in the Club?

Mick Howes

CCCUK Member
About to go and collect my buggered up Corvette, 95 LT1. The place I took it to for remapping to overcome an engine management issue ended up wiping the ECU so the car is now dead. He is refusing to do any more work to try and remedy the problem he actually created, and has now pushed the dead car out of their workshop for me to arrange recovery at 'my leisure'!

I will go and collect it, cost of £360, but I really want to get all my loses recouped, and also cover the costs for a new ECU, which will not be cheap!

If there are any solicitors in the club who could help out, or if anyone can advise of someone, I would really appreciate their help.

Thanks in advance.
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
You face the significant problem that you had an "engine management issue" before the car went in. What was that issue? I suspect it might be almost impossible to prove the subsequent greater problems were caused by the remapper.

Compare,
a) I knew the car had a problem and a competent mapper could have fixed it in 10 minutes.
b) We received a car whose ECU was already faulty and that's why we weren't able to achieve anything. It was unable to accept the fix we had been asked to do.

Did you have any sort of contract for the work? If so, what does it say? This might include any "standard terms and conditions" the business was using, if you ever saw them.

Who was the remapper? A specialist business renowned in UK for its skill with GM engines or a bloke under the railway arches with a laptop?

This is not a comfortable thing to hear but I strongly suspect your most effective way forward will be to get the car fixed by someone who knows what they're doing and suck up the cost. i.e. spend your money on the car and not on legal fees. You could consider getting them to write a report on what they had to fix, and why, then contemplate whether there's any chance of £ recovery after the event. (The alternative of leaving the car parked up for months while you argue things out doesn't look very attractive to me, particularly in view of uncertainty of outcome.)
 

Rich

Administrator
Very sound advise, Mick. Get the car back to you and spend the money fixing it. Have you asked Keith Beschi?
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
The problem with going legal is potentially the same scenario as what you had with the Corvette i.e - unless you are on benefits other than perhaps a ten minute or so 'free' consultation with a 'brief' you run the possible risk of employing a solicitor with no guarantees of getting a resolve.........they'll charge you for reading documentation, phone calls, emails, letters, consultation with colleagues.........and all of a sudden you're presented with a high three/possibly low 4 figure bill...........potentially for a big fat nothing!
Would trading standards be worth a call?
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
I think people will have a better view point if knowing the background on this
Mick emailed back in mid-April asking if OK the shop his 1995 C4 was in if that shop could email
me as they screwed up a totally functional PCM of this 95 C4

Notice the dates

From:
info@reidyremaps.co.uk [mailto:info@reidyremaps.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 8:09 AM
To:
'Teamzr1'
Subject: RE: Remap problem
Yes we just turned off the switch for the air pump, but on programming the ecu flashing failed at around 20% and wont write to the ecu even after battery disconnected we still have no ecu communication. Is there a way to flash these ecus on the bench or in boot mode of any sort?
Regards Matthew
----------------------------------------------------------

I responded to that shop and suggested they replace the PCM, take the loss as they destroyed the GM calibration and now the PCM is a dead brick
I even did spend my time to do some cyberspace search (which they could have done) and gave that shop the URLs of new and used 1995 PCMs they could buy

They choose not to

They asked if any other way to fix the PCM by bench and I told them they would need to desolder the memory flash chip, solder in a I/C socket so either than using a I/C burner is reformatting the flash chip and then flash in a 1995 C4 GM calibration

That was the last I heard from them 6 weeks ago

Unknown to me is instead of finding someone in the UK to do this as clearly that shop had no idea how to do this
They sent Mick's PCM to some shop in the USA and told them to do the I/C socket work and for unknown reasons not
have the calibration flashed in

So that shop gets the PCM back from the USA, but it cannot function without the calibration flashed in
I get this email 4 days ago :

From:
info@reidyremaps.co.uk [mailto:info@reidyremaps.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2023 6:37 AM
To:
'Teamzr1'
Subject: RE: Remap problem

I’m guessing these chips are set as hi and low can you tell me which chip is hi and which is low so I can program the original files onto them I have, got someone to socket the ecu for me but they took 4 weeks to return the ecu so I am not trying to get this up and running quick.

Thanks for your help
Regards Matthew
----------------------------------------------------

There is zero way I would know what was done to the PCM nor which flash chip they even hacked on

Below is an example of a C5 PCM I solder in a I/C socket and flashed in a GM calibration of a new flash chip
and the C5 has worked fine in the last 5 years

In short, why they did not fix the smog pump and choose to turn it off in the PCM to prevent smog error codes tripping

Being the software transfer failed 20% into the process, can just guess

1. shop had no experience in what they were doing
2. for whatever reason the C4 battery was low and due to that data was corrupted as the transfer was going on
3. The laptop they were using F'd UP
4. Operator F up, who every was doing this not enough experience to even be doing this

That shop wacked a functional PCM, they should have taken what I stated several weeks ago and bought another PCM but clear
they did not want to spend the money to fix their F up and instead forced Mick to have his C4 stuck at that shop for 6 weeks, so he lost the ability to drive it
Then, when they got the PCM back from the shop in the USA and now knew another of their F Ups, simply pushed the C4 outside and told him it is now his problem

Mick took his 1995 C4 to that shop for a simple smog issue, I could have solved that safely in like 5 minutes
This clearly is a shop with no experience causing the calibration crash, the PCM itself is still good but no software in it
lousy customer service and lack of caring, a C4 Corvette is rotting outside

Guys should support Mick and put that shop out of business of F'ing up members Corvettes :-(

Here is how I soldered in a I/C socket so that flash chip can be taken out or in

PCMsocketed.jpg
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
teamzr1 - let me try to understand....

PCM is a physical box comprising containing the "engine management computer"
ECU is a programmable chip soldered onto a board in the PCM
There's GM firmware (or whatever) in the ECU which runs the engine according to pre-set software parameters
Those parameters can be adjusted by plugging the PCM into a laptop equipped with suitable software
But if the GM firmware (or whatever) on the chip gets disrupted then either the entire PCM must be replaced or the ECU unsoldered and replaced (either permanently or by installing a socket)

Various questions,
1. What's the cost of a replacement PCM? Should it simply plug in and run the car properly? Or does it need to have settings adjusted?
2. What's the cost of a replacement ECU? Will it simply solder/plug in and run the car properly? Or does it need to have settings adjusted?
3. Once the PCM is replaced or repaired, will the car still have the same "engine management issue" it started out with?
3. Is the usual "fix" for this car's original problem (a) some mechanical work, or (b) adjusting the parameters in the PCM/ECU?
4. Is the suggestion here that the remapper trashed a good PCM, had it repaired into "plug and play" status and then trashed it again?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of previous interventions it seems to me the starting point is to get to the bottom of,
* What's needed to get this car running a.s.a.p,
* Where should that be done, and
* How much will it cost?

Although I can't answer any of those questions they are fundamental to finding a cost-effective way out of this situation.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
teamzr1 - let me try to understand....

PCM is a physical box comprising containing the "engine management computer"
ECU is a programmable chip soldered onto a board in the PCM
There's GM firmware (or whatever) in the ECU which runs the engine according to pre-set software parameters
Those parameters can be adjusted by plugging the PCM into a laptop equipped with suitable software
But if the GM firmware (or whatever) on the chip gets disrupted then either the entire PCM must be replaced or the ECU unsoldered and replaced (either permanently or by installing a socket)

Various questions,
1. What's the cost of a replacement PCM? Should it simply plug in and run the car properly? Or does it need to have settings adjusted?
2. What's the cost of a replacement ECU? Will it simply solder/plug in and run the car properly? Or does it need to have settings adjusted?
3. Once the PCM is replaced or repaired, will the car still have the same "engine management issue" it started out with?
3. Is the usual "fix" for this car's original problem (a) some mechanical work, or (b) adjusting the parameters in the PCM/ECU?
4. Is the suggestion here that the remapper trashed a good PCM, had it repaired into "plug and play" status and then trashed it again?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of previous interventions it seems to me the starting point is to get to the bottom of,
* What's needed to get this car running a.s.a.p,
* Where should that be done, and
* How much will it cost?

Although I can't answer any of those questions they are fundamental to finding a cost-effective way out of this situation.
Terms used can make it confusing, so let's define them
PCM is Powertrain Control Module, the calibration (Tune) is stored in a programmable flash memory
ECM is Engine Control Module, the calibration is stored in an E-prom chip
As to Corvettes, Pre-1994 used an ECM, 1994 to today a PCM is used

PCMs for a 1995 C4 as Mick has can be found as low as $150 US
Being Mick's 95 C4 is totally stock, then in most cases a used PCM for that year is a simple swap with the bad one

If the old PCM, someone with the knowledge and experience could un-solder the memory flash chip, put the into a flash chip
programmer device, they could reformat the flash chip and then flash in a stock 1995 GM calibration

Being the flash chip is surface mounted to the PCM board, the person doing the repair has to solder in a flash chip socket
as that way, the flash chip can be simply plugged in or out in the future

In Micks case, the problem was simple, the smog system, something was wrong, does not prevent the C4 from being driven, it simply
means every time is started the check engine light is on as smog error codes tripped

Not knowing why but instead of fixing the problem, they decided to go into the GM flash chip via some tuning tool and would take less than 2 minutes to turn off those smog error codes and also command so that the smog pump is not commanded on by the PCM

To do tuning ON-board, a tuning tool connects to the diagnostics port unto the dash which connects to the PCM like 1 network devices and moves data to and from tuning tool to the flash memory of PCM

Below I show a 1995 C4 and the few changes to do that

Not only is the calibration stored in the flash chip but also the operating system that the PCM computer uses
Somehow that shop when flashing in the changes corrupted the OS so now the PCM is dead

An example would be, you're copying a Microsoft Windows file to your computer and during the copy the power failed
now the original file is corrupted and MS Windows cannot function, so your P/C is hosed

What should be a simple tuning task, they screwed up

Here is the few error codes and AIR (SMOG) pump changes in tune was all that was needed to be done

I have been tuning since 1995 and have never hosed a PCM or ECM so that shop did something stupid or from lack of experience thought they
were making smog changes but instead changed something else, or their tuning tool is junk and crashed the PCM when moving the new tune on top of the existing PCM calibration

95air.jpg
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
To speed up, the oxygen sensors and the Cats functioning correctly when the engine is cold
The PCM commands the smog air pump on

On each exhaust manifold, there is a one-way check valve
Both are connected to an air hose that connects to the smog pump
When the air pump is on, air is flowed through those check valves, which allows the air into the exhaust stream to help get the smog devices in the exhaust to quickly heat up to work correctly

That pump is commanded on for a few minutes and then the PCM commands it off

Most cases when there is smog error codes is those 2 check valves due to carbon buildup get stuck open and allows the exhaust to flow back to the air pump.
Many times if those check valve are taken off and soaked in a cleaner, fixes the problem, else need to be replaced

Knowing if the air pump is bad, take the air hose off, engine cold, turn ign key on and feel if air is blowing out pump
If not it could be an AIR relay is bad or wiring of it or fuse bad

Either that shop had no experience on how to debug this problem or too lazy and quick band-aid workaround is command AIR off via a tune
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
That's useful. I think the question remains whether they've trashed it twice; once when the car first went in and then again after a new chip was installed.

What I don't currently understand is whether the PCM now in the car can be fixed by competent reprogramming or whether it needs to be replaced again.

Most significantly, if a replacement PCM can be bought for a few hundred £$ and will get the car running that sounds infinitely preferable to getting involved with lawyers.
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
As I mentioned the electronics used, the parts are surface mounted

If looking again at the PCM I worked on for a C5 closer
you see bottom image I marked is the flash chip
Notice all the solder legs, maybe 50 of them, very small and all soldered on top

Takes experience to un-solder the corrupted flash chip and then re-soldering it back in when fixed
or as I do solder a I/C socket, so now the flash chip pulls in and out of it

All that shop did was send the PCM to some shop in the USA and had them do the above
What was not done was fixing the flash chip and then flashing the PCM calibration into the flash chip

Go back to the old days when our computer had floppy disks and if something was wrong on the disk you
could have the computer re-format it and then copy the good files back on it

Well the same here, that shop wacked the software on flash, now need a tool that the flash chip taken out of the PCM
is inserted into the device, re-format it to make chip good again and flash in the GM calibration

That shop had no experience or way to fix the chip and install the software and tune into the flash and install back to PCM

Seems to me that shop did not want to spend the money to buy another PCM that had 1995 calibration and be done with it
Instead, spent several weeks sending PCM to the USA for a half ass attempt to fix corrupted flash chip

They could have done is send to a shop that their only business is to do the above and PCM than would have been fully functional again
AS example in a quick internet search a vendor that fixes the PCM when flash is corrupted or locked




socketed.jpg
 

Stingray

CCCUK Member
OK, I think you're saying that so long as the shop hasn't trashed the newly installed chip it should be possible for a competent specialist to program it correctly.

So now we're in the hands of UK people - where can this be done correctly and hopefully reasonably local to Mick Howes? TopCats, who advertise in Vette News, appear to come recommended. I've never used them. It also appears from the latest issue of Vette News that Keith Beschi (Eurovettes; long term Corvette guy) has contacts who could get on top of this stuff.

It's a consistent theme from me - spend your money on the car; try to avoid spending it on lawyers. Lawyers don't know much about cars, as you can tell from my contributions to this thread...
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
The whole reason to desolder the flash chip off the PCM is all the software that makes the PCM functional was wacked
Nothing but a brick now until the flash chip is placed in a device programmer tool like I have to be able to flash in all that was in the flash memory

Since the PCM is brain-dead the only way to get it working is someone that has a programmer tool flashes in what is needed
and then that flash chip (or a new one) installed back into the PCM would make it functional again


burner.jpg
 

Piginvet

Regular user
Hi Mick, sorry to hear about this, however back to original question, have u looked at your car insurance or even house insurance as some offer legal services as part of the package!
 

Mick Howes

CCCUK Member
Hi Mick, sorry to hear about this, however back to original question, have u looked at your car insurance or even house insurance as some offer legal services as part of the package!
Hi, hoping a resolution is forthcoming, but for extra 'fun' we are in the midst of an awful family legal tussle, all I will say is one family member arranged the purchase for my mother in laws house on her behalf, with her mother's money (back in 2010), turns out she ensured only her name on the deeds! Nightmare time all round!
 
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