Ethanol

[Mad4slalom]

Hi all, an interesting video popped up on my you tube last eve, dont know if anyone else has seen it. There was a guy testing the different brands of super unleaded for ethanol content, octane and price.
We had all heard of the E5 labeling and some saying that esso had zero ethanol in some parts of the country but not others. Well its interesting if true but Vmax came last due to being a lot dearer, it had 2.5% ethanol but it was 99 octane, gulf was zero ethanol, cheap price and 97 octane. Texaco rated highly with zero ethanol, mid priced and 97octane. My local garage is texaco, so I will be using that brand over v max from now on. Some of the supermarkets scored well too with zero or just 2.5 ethanol. Have a look and see if you can find the video with a google search. Interested in people’s thoughts on the validity of his findings. it will be great peace of mind to know there is no ethanol going through our pipes and carbs

 

[Roscobbc]

This is perhaps the video you refer to -

Several things that concern me about the findings - why are the specific fuel manufacturers not telling the buying public that their fuels are ethanol free or 99 octane (and potentially missing out on a marketing advantage) - are we to believe that exactly the same fuel mix from each of the manufacturers is generally available across the UK at all of their other filling stations? - are we also to believe that each of these manufacturers uses a specific blend from their very own distribution points to all of their locations? - or - do they just use a generic mix from refineries/wholesale distributors that is also available to other brands of fuel?. Just can't believe that supermarkets like Sainsbury's, Tesco's and Morrison's actually have their very own specific fuel mix rather a generic 'mix' also available to others. I'd be confident that each of the supermarket fuel brands buy at the very best wholesale prices from whichever refinery or supplier that has the best deal at the time of purchase. Most petrol filling stations although branded Esso, BP, Shell or whatever are franchises. Logic says that the franchise's are only allowed to use fuels from the brand whose name is outside the station.........but do the tankers bringing the fuel actually come from the brands own refineries........or a wholesale supplier?

 

[teamzr1]

Here in the USA there is a nationwide underground pipeline system and the producers of gas pump their raw fuel into common pipeline
So the raw gas is generic from all of them
It is the suppliers to the gas stations that then put the additives as per brand a, B, C, etc

That does not assure though that what the end user get out of the gas station pumps for brand X as the supplier is a crook and
is not putting in all additives brand X requires, so supplier has a higher profit margin

This is worse with the Ethanol crap, as supplier could in fact mix in 15% of ethanol as he makes a higher profit but states if is 5 or 10 %

Your lucky in the UK if Ethanol percentage is 5% or less than here in states it is up to 15% even in hot weather when it is known that damages internals of vehicles in hot weather and reduces fuel mileage
In fact the F's who control the White House make a rule that the gas pumps do not even have to put a label informing the customers how
much Ethanol is being pumped into their vehicles' gas pumps

If caring about your vehicles engine and fuel system and also how it performs try and use no Ethanol whenever you can
Myself for last 20 years have only used no Eth, pay a bit more but F that corn crap.

Wonder if people understand that since Eth is made of corn that it creates bio organisms into their fuel system ?
Major reasons fuel gauges report incorrect gas in tank is this crap grows and eats the masking off the sender board for the fuel floats.

I caught one brand that the supplier was putting in 20% and cars like Corvette, Camaro or Caddy with high performance or added boost
began running like crap causing a shiftload of engine knock and the PCM dropping into the low octane timing table and staying there

If in doubt as example,
water weighs more than Ethanol and it attracts water.
Put 10% water into a clear container that measurement marks
Fill the rest with the gas from the vehicles, shake a bit and then let it sit

If when mix is settled, and watermark goes up to 15% then you k now that is the amount of Eth is in that tank

 

[teamzr1]

The increase in ethanol based fuels available in the market today has made vehicle manufacturers and suppliers create more robust fuel systems that can operate in an ethanol rich environment.
The higher percentage of ethanol in fuel is more aggressive to the fuel system components including fuel level sensors and even the fuel pump.

Ethanol absorbs a larger amount of moisture compared to conventional fuel.
If mixed with water in the fuel system, ethanol will produce formic acid.
Formic acid will be found in the fuel system in small quantities and although corrosion will start to form.

As the percentage of ethanol increases in the fuel, electrical conductivity will also increase.
The fuel delivery system must be ESD (Electro-Static Discharge) complaint. All related components must be capable of dissipating the charge through approved conductive material to the vehicle ground. Components such as the fuel filler neck, modules and nylon tubing must be ESD compliant to ensure the entire fuel system is ESD compatible.

To ensure fuel delivery system integrity and functionality, Spectra Premium performs the following testing parameters to the fuel delivery system
components to ensure longevity and functionality.
Even though manufacturers have identified that 10% ethanol content as no effect on conventional components of the fuel delivery system, Spectra Premium performs testing of the fuel delivery system to ensure compatibility of the fuel delivery components in the ever-growing market of ethanol based fuels.
For Flex Fuel Vehicles (FFV) running with E85, Spectra Premium ensures that high quality components such as stainless steel hangers, internal pump components and specific plastics are compatible to the FFV standard.

 

[Oneball]

Here in the USA there is a nationwide underground pipeline system and the producers of gas pump their raw fuel into common pipeline
So the raw gas is generic from all of them
It is the suppliers to the gas stations that then put the additives as per brand a, B, C, etc

Similar principle here which is why some fuels are ethanol free in some areas and not in others and also why that video is only accurate for the actual pumps the fuel came from.

 

[Chuffer]

Hi all, an interesting video popped up on my you tube last eve, dont know if anyone else has seen it. There was a guy testing the different brands of super unleaded for ethanol content, octane and price.
We had all heard of the E5 labeling and some saying that esso had zero ethanol in some parts of the country but not others. Well its interesting if true but Vmax came last due to being a lot dearer, it had 2.5% ethanol but it was 99 octane, gulf was zero ethanol, cheap price and 97 octane. Texaco rated highly with zero ethanol, mid priced and 97octane. My local garage is texaco, so I will be using that brand over v max from now on. Some of the supermarkets scored well too with zero or just 2.5 ethanol. Have a look and see if you can find the video with a google search. Interested in people’s thoughts on the validity of his findings. it will be great peace of mind to know there is no ethanol going through our pipes and carbs

Very sceptical about such claims . If something sounds to good to be true , it usually is . Sounds like `snake oil ` to me .

 

[CaptainK]

In the cars I care about I have always used super unleaded, which is now the zero / low ethanol grade. Only the dailies get the cheap fuel.

 

[Mad4slalom]

Very sceptical about such claims . If something sounds to good to be true , it usually is . Sounds like `snake oil ` to me .

Seems s bit like the supermarket fuel debate, is it bad for your egr system as no additives to save money. You cant seem to find a definitive answer and i think the ethanol is the same . All you get are heresay and opinions , no actual facts. I thought it was law that petrol now had to have 5 or 10% ethanol, so why is it even possible to have zero or 2.5% in some brands? And if that is the case then I see no reason why the couldnt have allowed a definate zero ethanol fuel to protect valuable classics. Typical government bureaucracy and mis management again. Back to Keep adding the octane boost/ ethanol protective products I guess

 

[Roscobbc]

Ethanol absorbs a larger amount of moisture compared to conventional fuel.
If mixed with water in the fuel system, ethanol will produce formic acid.

Strong solutions of formic acid are corrosive and can cause burns to any part of the body it comes into contact with. Ingestion of formic acid can result in burns to the mouth, throat and stomach, drooling, difficulty swallowing and vomiting (there may be blood in the vomit).
I'm sure any acidic solutions are relatively mild.......an interesting fact nevertheless!

 

[antijam]

I thought it was law that petrol now had to have 5 or 10% ethanol, so why is it even possible to have zero or 2.5% in some brands?

I believe the legal requirement is for fuel displayed as E5 to have 5% ethanol or less. Fuel displayed as E10 will have more than 5% ethanol but up to 10% maximum.

 

[Mad4slalom]

I believe the legal requirement is for fuel displayed as E5 to have 5% ethanol or less. Fuel displayed as E10 will have more than 5% ethanol but up to 10% maximum.

Oh oki get it now

 

[CaptainK]

And I don't think there is any mandate on fuel to contain X amount of ethanol in SUPER unleaded. Its just normal unleaded. Hence they can have 0% ethanol in SUPER unleaded if they want to. It'll be stickered as E5 though to keep the public amused etc, but as above its actually "anything up to 5%", of which 0% fits into that.

 

[Chuffer]

Zero ethanol only applies to Esso 99 RON in most parts of UK . Not in the West Country though . Other brands of Super Unleaded have 5% ethanol from what I have read up on in this whole sad saga . No wonder Joe Public gets confoosed !!

 

[CaptainK]

Zero ethanol only applies to Esso 99 RON in most parts of UK . Not in the West Country though . Other brands of Super Unleaded have 5% ethanol from what I have read up on in this whole sad saga . No wonder Joe Public gets confoosed !!

Indeed the confusion is high. The ESSO zero ethanol NOT in the west country is only Cornwall and Devon from what I remember. Somerset (where I am) is fine, so we get the zero ethanol. Seems weird they'd have a different blend in different part of the country. Maybe the ethanol is grown down in Cornwall / Devon so its cheap for them to chuck it in down there?

 

[Roscobbc]

Indeed the confusion is high. The ESSO zero ethanol NOT in the west country is only Cornwall and Devon from what I remember. Somerset (where I am) is fine, so we get the zero ethanol. Seems weird they'd have a different blend in different part of the country. Maybe the ethanol is grown down in Cornwall / Devon so its cheap for them to chuck it in down there?

Perhaps down to logistics of running tankers to Devon and Cornwall from wherever the nearest Esso distribution point is. Guessing also that lack of a fast road network, being in the corner of the country and perhaps a relatively low population count for the counties (and use of ) may not make economic sense for Esso?

 

[Forrest Gump]

I would have though the fuel supplier's accountants would ensure their fuel is blended to make it as low cost as possible within the E5 and E10 specifications. The accountants, engineers and marketing departments all have their objectives, but profit margin is king. Ethanol is cheaper than petroleum isn't it? so you'd think E5 is generally at 5% ethanol content and E10, 10%. But in the video above, the most ethanol seen was 2.5% so there must be more to it than that.
The different Ethanol % claims from suppliers all have in the small print that they can in fact supply to whatever % they wish at their discretion.
We need an insider from the refinery to give us the truth, or ask the tanker drivers as they come out of the depot if they all filled up from the same tank! I had a friend that owned a fuel station many years ago, he reckoned they did just that, but that was in the days where either 4 star or unleaded were your choice.

 

[teamzr1]

As I mentioned in a post above, you can make an Ethanol/gas percentage tester for nothing
so why guess what a supplier is really putting in the tanks of a gas station, or

You can buy like this that is already labeled and simple to use and then know for certain what a station or brand is
selling as to percentage of Ethanol

$12 US
Eth Tester Container

 

[Roscobbc]

I would have though the fuel supplier's accountants would ensure their fuel is blended to make it as low cost as possible within the E5 and E10 specifications. The accountants, engineers and marketing departments all have their objectives, but profit margin is king. Ethanol is cheaper than petroleum isn't it? so you'd think E5 is generally at 5% ethanol content and E10, 10%. But in the video above, the most ethanol seen was 2.5% so there must be more to it than that.
The different Ethanol % claims from suppliers all have in the small print that they can in fact supply to whatever % they wish at their discretion.
We need an insider from the refinery to give us the truth, or ask the tanker drivers as they come out of the depot if they all filled up from the same tank! I had a friend that owned a fuel station many years ago, he reckoned they did just that, but that was in the days where either 4 star or unleaded were your choice.

One of my neighbours has a couple of filling station franchises - despite the high costs at the pump they were struggling to makemoney at the pumps......and thats where the shops came in to play. Wonder if the filling stations are struggling to make ends meet at £1.68 a litre for E10 now.......
I'll need to ask him about the ethanol content.

 

[Forrest Gump]

One of my neighbours has a couple of filling station franchises - despite the high costs at the pump they were struggling to makemoney at the pumps......and thats where the shops came in to play. Wonder if the filling stations are struggling to make ends meet at £1.68 a litre for E10 now.......
I'll need to ask him about the ethanol content.

I shouldn’t think the filling station are making much more profit on fuel even now. And Supermarket filling station are pretty much loss-leaders just drawing people to do the weekly food shop at the store

The UKs first electric-only “filling station” that they’ve built at Braintree is basically a mini shopping mall and posh cafe - you’re going to be there for a while charging up so a good opportunity for retailers & restaurants

 

[teamzr1]

On the subject of Ethanol
State of Ca likes pumping that E15 gas and of course with this weekend's holiday

A gas station in the San Francisco Bay Area is charging customers almost $8 per gallon for its higher octane supreme level of gasoline ahead of Memorial Day weekend.
A photographer at KGO News found a Chevron gas station in Menlo Park, California, offering regular gasoline to customers at a price of $7.25 per gallon, with its supreme-grade gasoline hitting a whopping $7.75 per gallon.
Imagine at 8 bucks a gallon and fill tank of 20 gallons, you need a loan just for 1 tank and what if needing 4 tanks a month !

So being at sea level where engines would run the leanest, with the most engine knock they force the E15 and stick it to the public all around