C2 327 overheating

Vetteman

CCCUK Member
Hi Folks, I have recently acquired a fabulous 327 1965 C2

Only issue is overheating, its is just all over the place. Its runs hot then gets really hot, cools down a bit but always well above 180 bit never settles at one steady temperature.

Tried the obvious changing thermostat and sender, made no difference.

Any ideas welcome.

TIA
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
Could be one or a number of the following things causing the problem.
Radiator partially internally blocked with crap caused by no coolant/antifreeze used at some earlier point. Engine block cooling galleries the same issue. Water pump vanes eroded (same reason). Radiator hoses collapsing and restricting flow (missing internal 'spring'). It the fan is a viscous coupled type....(failure of unit) Ignition timing too far retarded. Thermostat failure (seized).
Some higher powered engine options may struggle even with typical UK summer temperatures. Is this a recent thing over the last few weeks? (and coinciding with hot weather)
 

Vetteman

CCCUK Member
Thanks for your help. The previous owner had the same issue, replacing the thermostat and water pump and all piping.

The water pump is much hotter than the rest of the engine so I suspect clogging and blocking is the issue, perhaps rad and block.

Any recommendations on how to clear?

Also considering an aluminium rad, again any recommendations.

Thanks again
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
Aluminium radiator - best choice is DeWitts, expensive, very expensive.......however buy once.......for remaining life of vehicle.
Suggest the use of proprietary rad cleaners initially ........... perhaps later someone to run industrial type chemical cleaners through the system. Problem here is that process may accelerate any 'weaknesses' with internally corroded engine block core/freeze plugs........some which may not be accessable with the engine in place..........leading to engine disassembly and need for professional 'hot tanking'.
I've been through all this with my '68 big block car. Being the first year C3 cooling in hot weather was at best marginal. First thing replaced was water pump. Sourced a high performance replacement. OEM impeller was steel (aftermarket ones are plastic/nylon perhaps). Years of insufficient anti-freeze and associated water cavitation and corrosion had partly 'worn' off the vanes on the impeller, reducing its efficiency. The other issue with many C3's (perhaps C2's as well?) is perhaps previous owners removing factory rubber seals and fillets surrounding the radiator and fan. Best establish what your car should have and replace if missing. Best logic is to aim for ALL cooling air passing through the front grille should ideally pass through the radiator (and only the radiator) - If a fan shroud was an OEM fitment......again make sure it is in good order and effectively sealed to front bodywork. If I recall Stewart water pumps are well reccomended by USA enthusiasts.
 

Mr. Cricket

Committee Member
Congrats on your new C2 lets have some pics.

Ross makes some good suggestions as usual. I have three C2's two of which are big blocks that are notorious for over-heating but none of mine do and I have Evans green waterless fluid in all and I do believe this helps. Have you run a temp gun over the rad top to bottom, top hose, thermostat housing and checked it against your temp guage? My '65 small block temp guage kinda has a mind of its own and can sometimes peg but checking with the gun always shows it around 180/200. New block sensors are known to be unreliable.
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
Good points Stuart. Experience has also told me that flow rate of coolant passing through the radiator quite likely has an optimum flow speed related of amount to coolant exposed to cooling air.....too fast a flow and perhaps coolant isn't 'exposed' in radiator cooling vanes long enough to get best temperature drop. Conversely too slow a flow may allow allow a gradual heat build-up of coolant and ultimately overheating.
 
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teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Have you done any testing to see if the problem is the clutch of the fan ?
imageproc.jpg

Is the pulley off the crank a damper type, degraded ?
How about one of the radiator hose under pressure collapsing ?
Is it possible that the coolant sensor, gauge, or both are not reporting temp correctly ?
 

Nassau65

CCCUK Member
Took my 65 out for a little run yesterday, hot day, bit of traffic etc, temperature was just over 180 on the gauge. It’s a little 327, original radiator complete with fan shroud.
 

Nassau65

CCCUK Member
I would first remove the factory radiator, throughly wash out, and refit. At least that way you will know the radiator is nice and clean.
I’m actually going to do that to mine, as it hasn’t been done in years. I’ve got no overheating problems at the moment, but it’s pretty easy to do and well worth the time it takes.
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
One of the Nats a few years back (when on the committee) I took my '68 up to the hotel on the Friday afternoon with 34 degrees ambient temperatures.
Travelling a good few miles up the A1M I 'found' the ideal cruising speed that would achieve the lowest indicated engine temperature..........this was between 185 and 188 degrees. Ideal crusing speed was aproximately a GPS checked 62 mph. Creeping up to 65 and 70 mph and the temperature would start to rise. Surprisingly speeds lower than 60/62 mph had the same result.....temperature rise. Following in the 'wake' of arctics and heavy lorries would also see an increase in temperature if too close. Once in urban driving conditions the engine temperature on such days would inevitably increase up to 188 - 192, perhaps 195 degrees where fuel vapourisation would cause the engine to run a little 'lumpy' and (without the benefit of A/C) I would slowly start to 'cook' in the cabin.
 

Mr. Cricket

Committee Member
**warning long post below**

Chris Sale is a mind of useful information on especially C2's but as he's in the wilds of Canada presently he asked that I post this article he wrote that may help the OP and others.

C2 Corvette Temperature Gauge Calibration​



Have you ever wondered how accurate your temperature gauge really is?

I had never thought much about this until I changed the intake manifold on my ’64 a few years ago. I use a 170 degree thermostat, and at the point where my thermostat opened and I could feel a good flow of hot water through my top hose, my temperature gauge needle was always a little to the left of the 180 mark and this was good enough for me.

I had done some homework prior to changing my manifold and I knew that the temperature sender was a key component in obtaining accurate readings. The sender is a variable resistor whose resistance changes with temperature, but the profile of resistance versus temperature is not a straight line. The gauge itself is designed to compensate for this non-linear response.

I had tried to remove my original sender but after 40+ years installed in a cast iron manifold it didn’t want to move, so I thought that maybe it was best to leave it alone. On various bulletin boards I had seen that the Wells TU-5 sender was considered closest to the original AC sender, so this is what I installed in my new manifold. However, when I first ran my engine with the new manifold and sender, I found that at the thermostat opening point the gauge needle was now well to the right of the 180 mark, almost up to the mark between 180 and 240 on the gauge. In other words, the gauge was now reading somewhere around 30 degrees high.

After getting the high reading I removed the TU-5 it and replaced it with another used AC sender. The needle was now not quite so far to the right of the 180, but was still too high. This caused considerable annoyance, plus a determination to sort the problem.

It was at this point that I decided the time had come to contact fellow NCRS member Jack Humphrey in the US. Jack is an Electrical Engineer who has helped me with various issues over the years. He pointed me to two articles he had written about temperature gauges and senders a few years ago and these were veritable mines of information. My attention was immediately drawn to the copy of the temperature versus resistance curves for the original C2 AC 1513321 temperature sender. Although a little difficult to read in places, it is immediately apparent that we are not exactly dealing with a precision instrument, particularly at the lower temperatures:

Note that with a temperature sender resistance of 240 ohms, the temperature could be anywhere between 115 and 130 deg F. Even with a sender resistance of 80 ohms, the temperature could range from 200 to 210 deg F.

These variations are acceptable, but the picture can change dramatically if you no longer have your original sender. In my case, even with a supposedly accurate Wells TU-5, my gauge was reading somewhere around 210F when the actual coolant temperature was around 175F. The problem is that although different senders look alike, simply measuring their resistance at room temperature is no guarantee of how they will perform on your engine, because the resistance range at lower temperatures is so broad and in any case the chart does not show the resistance range below 100F.

The other point to be aware of is that at the factory, temperature gauges were calibrated by hooking them up to a precision voltage/current source corresponding to what the gauge would see from the standard temperature sender on an engine running at the high end of the temperature scale. With early gauges the assembler then installed the needle to point to the correct temperature. With later gauges (starting sometime in 1965) a hand-selected shunt resistor was used to force the correct reading. In other words, the temperature gauge was matched to the characteristics of the temperature senders being installed when the car was first produced. Accuracy was thus also a function of how the gauge assembler was feeling on the day.

The significance of this is that unless your gauge is original and has never been sent away for restoration, and unless you still have your correct original temperature sender, the chances are that your temperature gauge is giving you readings that are not even close to the actual coolant temperature. If, therefore, this article has made you suspicious of what your temperature gauge is telling you, I suggest the following courses of action:

Use Substitute Resistors

A good starting point is to make up some test leads with known resistors and see what readings your gauge gives you when these resistors are used in place of whatever sender you have. These checks must be made with your engine running and with charging stabilised, so that the temperature gauge is seeing the same voltage that it would see on the road.

I made up four test leads using 50, 100, 150 and 200 ohm 1W fixed resistors. Connect these in turn between the temp sender lead and ground, and see what temperature your gauge is indicating. If your gauge is functioning correctly, the temperature readings that you get with each of these resistors should be reasonably close to what you see on the original temperature versus resistance curves.

Check the Thermostat Opening Temperature

If you know what the real opening temperature of your thermostat is, see how close to this temperature your temperature gauge is reading at the point when the thermostat opens. This should normally be when you can start to feel a good flow of hot water from the thermostat housing into the top hose.

Use an IR Thermometer

Obtain an accurate IR Thermometer and take readings from the lower surface of the top hose close to the thermostat housing, once the thermostat is open and you have a good flow through the top hose. If you take this approach and if you have not used an IR thermometer before, I recommend that you first experiment by taking readings while heating water in containers that have different external surfaces. You may find, as I did, that you will get misleading readings from polished surfaces.

After performing these checks, you should have a good idea how much correction to make to the readings you are seeing on your temperature gauge. However, don’t forget that even when new, the readings were only +/- 10F degrees accurate at best.

How did I restore accuracy to my gauge? I spent many frustrating hours trying to calibrate aftermarket temperature senders using pans of hot water on the stove, but I found it impossible to obtain consistent readings. I then went back to my original intake manifold and managed to remove my original temperature sender after several days’ soaking with WD-40. I installed this in my new manifold and my temperature gauge now reads exactly as it did before.

Finally, a word of warning……

Replacement temperature senders cause gauges to read high because their temperature versus resistance curves are lower than the curves for original senders. A method that is sometimes used to make a high-reading temperature gauge show the correct temperature under normal operation is to install a variable resistor between the sender and the gauge, and then ‘dial in’ sufficient extra resistance to bring the gauge needle back down to the correct temperature.

The problem with doing this is that the gauge is now only giving a correct reading at that particular temperature. By adding resistance, you have artificially increased the minimum resistance that the gauge will now see from the sender. This means that you have now set a limit on how high the gauge will read, and this in turn means that the gauge will no longer be able to indicate a genuine over-heating condition.



Chris Sale

CCCUK 436
 
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