Goodbye, Start / Stop ?

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
A new proposal from Environmental Protection agency director Lee Zeldin went viral after he promised to get rid of one frustrating feature in new vehicles.

‘Start/stop technology: where your car dies at every red light, so companies get a climate participation trophy,’ Zeldin on social media.
‘EPA approved it, and everyone hates it, so we’re fixing it.’
Zeldin’s post on X went viral with eight million views, 11,000 reposts, and 92,000 likes in 24 hours.
The auto start/stop technology was integrated in most vehicles by 2020 as a way for automakers to reach Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards.

The feature ensured the vehicle turns off the engine every time it comes to a complete stop and automatically restarts when the accelerator pedal is pressed.
By making it a standard feature that automatically turned on, the EPA allowed automakers to claim fuel economy benefits that did not appear in the overall air quality standards.

But drivers, who hate the feature, have voiced frustration that they are required to turn it off every time they start their vehicle.
Zeldin’s announcement drew immediate support from drivers across the political spectrum.
Not only does your car die at every red light, so does your air conditioning,’ author and journalist Michael Barone.
‘Makes it uncomfortable waiting 3 minutes for the green arrows in places like Florida.’

‘If Trump gets this done, he belongs on Mount Rushmore,’ influencer Matt Van Swol.
‘Yes!! I can verify, as a car salesman, nearly everybody hates it. From personal testing, for most it doesn’t save much anyway. 900 miles in a month, 0.02 gal saved,’ car salesmen Litizen Jeff

‘Also, it’s unsafe (e.g. stalling out briefly in the center lane as you’re about to make a left turn.)’
‘Please do. It breaks cars. Our Honda would stall and not start, leaving us in vulnerable situations.
Also, it makes cars hesitate when you are pulling out across traffic. It’s dangerous,’ Matt Nachtrab.

‘Bless you, Lee Zeldin. Auto stop-start in a Southern summer is basically attempted manslaughter by climate control. Let the engine run and the AC blow; our lives depend on it!’ Darren Montgomery on X.
‘THANK YOU!
We had to replace our battery *much* earlier because of this feature! Increased demand for car batteries aren’t any better for the environment,’ Freda Drake.

'Thank God... this start/stop crap came out of nowhere and is just ridiculous.
The stuff that has been thrust upon us. No one asked for it, no one wants it,' the Dread Pirate Roberts. 'Thank you, Lee Zeldin!'
It's unclear exactly how Zeldin plans to address the issue, but widespread support for the idea indicated it will be a priority.
 

antijam

CCCUK Member
I have a lot of sympathy with this proposal. I once briefly had a Mercedes with stop/start, driving it was very disconcerting. These quotes from the above....
‘Also, it’s unsafe (e.g. stalling out briefly in the center lane as you’re about to make a left turn.)’
( or in our case making a right )
Also, it makes cars hesitate when you are pulling out across traffic. It’s dangerous,’ Matt Nachtrab.
The system may be extremely reliable but I always had a slight panic that it wouldn't restart when I had perhaps to pause halfway through a turn across oncoming traffic.
OK, it probably had some fuel consumption and emission benefits but as indicated above battery life was usually considerably reduced.
I doubt that many drivers will miss it.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
Thank the gods that someone has finally seen the light on this absurd and fundamentally flawed invention that is purely for the benefit of car manufacturers . They any the hell out of me although I have never owned one and never will . All you need is 3 or 4 `stop start ` vehicles in front you at a red light and by the time they have got their arses into gear when the light goes green you are stuck on a red again !!
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Can you imagine living in a large city with 5 million vehicles in rush hour traffic
Doing a search in cyberspace shows countless complaints of start/stop

Just one of them

4 fires, 2 injuries, and more than 2,000 complaints trigger NHTSA probe on millions of Honda and Acura cars


The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) just opened an engineering analysis into a safety defect affecting more than 2.2 million Honda and Acura vehicles.

The issue involves the Auto Start/Stop system, which may prevent the engine from restarting after coming to a complete halt at intersections or traffic lights.

The investigation covers multiple models, including the 2016-2025 Honda Pilot, 2018-2025 Odyssey, 2019-2025 Passport, 2020-2025 Ridgeline, 2015-2025 Acura TLX, and 2016-2025 Acura MDX.
Drivers already filed 2,348 complaints, including reports of four crashes and two injuries.
Some said they
needed a jump start to get their vehicle running again after an Auto Start/Stop failure.

NHTSA first opened a preliminary evaluation in June 2022, focusing on 2016-2019 Honda Pilot models.

By January 2023, Honda issued service bulletins addressing the problem in several affected vehicles.
The recommended fix included a software update and,

if necessary, replacing the starter assembly, relays, and performing a valve adjustment.
Honda also extended the warranty to 10 years with unlimited mileage for vehicles requiring parts replacement.

Still, complaints about the issue persist, with some owners stating that Honda’s fix
didn’t resolve the problem.
As a result, the NHTSA just escalated its investigation to an engineering analysis, which will help determine if a broader recall is needed.
The agency will continue collecting data on the effectiveness of Honda’s repairs and any additional risks posed by the defect.

Owners of affected models should monitor NHTSA’s website for updates and contact Honda if they experience issues with the Auto Start/Stop system.
 
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Blackzed

CCCUK Member
There's all sorts of crap on cars now that they don't need.
As CaptainK says above, the "lane assisted suicde" is horrible. That coupled with, (on our new car) the speed limit warning, which has to be turned off every time you start it, or it will bong constantly if you go 1 mph over the recognised limit. Also there is a setting that actually turns the steering wheel for you, which is an extension of the lane assist, that's very scary, I thought the car was possessed when that was on, not a good experience.
I thought I passed a test to show I could drive many years ago, seems the cars are trying to do it all now.
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
I recall having to use company cars for 3 year/70k mile contracts with the early iterations of robotised and/or dual clutch automatic transmissions. The VW diesel estate with 5 speed dual clutch 'auto' shifting transmission. The cars 'system' would sense if the vehicle was on an incline and delay/cut engine power using the abs/traction control......any forward progress was accompanied by delayed engine response and loads of wheelspin......which was the trigger to subsequently cut engine power for a few seconds. Forward progress in icy conditions was marked by on/off intermittent wheelspin/dead engine.
And there was Honda's I-Shift single clutch version of VAG's system above. Like VW the Honda was fine for 95% of the time.....but back- off the gas pedal when 'filtering' in to traffic flow on a roundabout (for example) would severely confuse the I-Shifts 'brain' and it could take 2 or 3 seconds for it to re-apply engine power, effectively leaving you stranded in a traffic flow situation with no engine power........it took Honda 18 months to 'write' a software 'patch' to correct the potential dangerous fault......but it only reduced the power 'take-up' delay by 50%.....so still a major design flaw. Honda dropped the transmission shortly after that.
I kept meticulous records about the problems and communications with the dealer and Honda in case of a subsequent accident related to the system fault (and a court case ensue).
 
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antijam

CCCUK Member
........ That coupled with, (on our new car) the speed limit warning, which has to be turned off every time you start it, or it will bong constantly if you go 1 mph over the recognised limit.

There's nothing new under the sun. My 1948 MG has a 30 mph warning lamp on the dash (actuated by the speedo), just in case you didn't realise you were in a built-up area. There was possibly some justification for it since it was the passenger that had the speedo to look at - the driver got the important gauge, the rev counter.

Untitled-1.jpg
This car was built long before indicators were in common use (you hung your arm over the side and waggled it vaguely to indicate a turn) and they're still not mandatory on this age vehicle today. However it seemed prudent to add them since many drivers today would probably interpret a waving arm as a rude gesture. In doing so I've converted the 30 mph lamp into an indicator signal which is certainly more useful since they don't self cancel.
 
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Roscobbc

Moderator
Following on from the above......what if (for example) a non- techie driver (say your elderly grannie for example) is driving her modern wide tyred auto magic or manual transmission car with power assisted steering......and the engine cuts-out leaving her with a dead engine.
We know that if the car has a manual transmission and it remains in-gear it should still get either hydraulic or electric assistance to the steering....but what if the car gets knocked out of gear? - it will effectively have steering so heavy that 'your granny' will not have the strength to turn the wheel.......and potentially collide with something. Ok, so theoretically there will still be a reserve of vacuum left for a few brake applications.......in theory!
Kinda worrying implications that I'm sure manufacturers will try and make light of!
 

Dorsetsteve

Busy user
Had it on all our daily cars for years now. Aside from the fact the aircon stops, which on a baking hot day in a traffic jam is annoying (rare) I don’t even notice stop start anymore. It has no impact on my drive at all.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
Had it on all our daily cars for years now. Aside from the fact the aircon stops, which on a baking hot day in a traffic jam is annoying (rare) I don’t even notice stop start anymore. It has no impact on my drive at all.
Still a pointless gizmo though that is only there to `massage` manufacturers emissions figures .
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
I would say that the only sensible way to have a stop/start system that doesn't run a risk of starter failure, battery degradation or personal irritation from hearing a starter kicking-in every few minutes is to use a hybrid vehicle that uses an integral starter/generator/transmission system. These are totally silent and effectively 'seamless' in operation with instant starting. However the vehicle still uses a 12v starter operating and charging circuit......typically makers will use a relatively small capacity battery.
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
The most useful gizmo fitted to cars IMO was ABS brakes . It has all been down hill since then with gimmicks and `driver aids` for muppets that can`t control a car properly or work out for themselves when visibility conditions require the headlights to be switched on . Not to mention electronic parking brakes for people who cannot master the simple task of pulling up a lever !
 

Roscobbc

Moderator
The most useful gizmo fitted to cars IMO was ABS brakes . It has all been down hill since then with gimmicks and `driver aids` for muppets that can`t control a car properly or work out for themselves when visibility conditions require the headlights to be switched on . Not to mention electronic parking brakes for people who cannot master the simple task of pulling up a lever !
Electronic parking brakes are an amusing addition. Being as they lock-up the rear brakes 'solidly' (and sometimes 'fail' by sticking-on) some people would be afraid to use them when in motion (if main braking system failed) thinking they will 'lock-up' the rear wheels. Manufacturers don't seem to explain that it requires succesive applications of parking park brake to 'lock-up'.
ABS in perhaps 95% of cases is really a live saver........except that so many drivers will 'tailgate' other vehicles assuming they will be able to stop in time.........and then we have the scenario of oil, ice or gravel on the road surface that can prevent brakes being applied fully......with unfortunate results.,
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
Electronic parking brakes are an amusing addition. Being as they lock-up the rear brakes 'solidly' (and sometimes 'fail' by sticking-on) some people would be afraid to use them when in motion (if main braking system failed) thinking they will 'lock-up' the rear wheels. Manufacturers don't seem to explain that it requires succesive applications of parking park brake to 'lock-up'.
ABS in perhaps 95% of cases is really a live saver........except that so many drivers will 'tailgate' other vehicles assuming they will be able to stop in time.........and then we have the scenario of oil, ice or gravel on the road surface that can prevent brakes being applied fully......with unfortunate results.,
The same applies to `stability control ` and other such toys . It makes the numb skulls think they are invincible and their vehicle will get them out of trouble every time .
The other big down side to electronic parking brakes is for those of us of a DIY bent . You can`t replace the brake pads without all high tech gear to release the calipers and take the pads out !!
 

teamzr1

Supporting vendor
Nameplates sell what customers want
The C8 is loaded with crap to where most of the dash is now filled with screens
The large one on the right I think is 17 inches, years ago that was the size of my P/C screen

gbs.jpg

There are all kinds of crap drivers are screwing with rather than looking where they are driving
This crap is from doing internet, to Apple crap, cellphone, etc

Last year GM sold over 42,000 C8s which shows those buyers like all this crap
Bad enough now as to federal law vehicles have to have auto braking where when controllers think you will hit the car ahead
it forces the brakes on

Imagine that along with the start/stop crap, and it is no longer a sports car Corvette but more like a Caddy or a waxer office

The E-Ray design so bad that HVAC depends on the gas engine to be running and since E-Ray uses a small battery,
there is no HVAC when engine is off or if weather temps are below 40 F degrees
Imagine in heavy rush hour traffic in 100 F degree weather and siting for like an hour with no HVAC as we all know these waxers do not even know how to change engine oil or repair a tire leak much less know how every time the engine is turned off
that driver would have to push a button to turn start/stop off each time the engine is restarted
 

Chuffer

CCCUK Member
Nameplates sell what customers want
The C8 is loaded with crap to where most of the dash is now filled with screens
The large one on the right I think is 17 inches, years ago that was the size of my P/C screen

View attachment 30216

There are all kinds of crap drivers are screwing with rather than looking where they are driving
This crap is from doing internet, to Apple crap, cellphone, etc

Last year GM sold over 42,000 C8s which shows those buyers like all this crap
Bad enough now as to federal law vehicles have to have auto braking where when controllers think you will hit the car ahead
it forces the brakes on

Imagine that along with the start/stop crap, and it is no longer a sports car Corvette but more like a Caddy or a waxer office

The E-Ray design so bad that HVAC depends on the gas engine to be running and since E-Ray uses a small battery,
there is no HVAC when engine is off or if weather temps are below 40 F degrees
Imagine in heavy rush hour traffic in 100 F degree weather and siting for like an hour with no HVAC as we all know these waxers do not even know how to change engine oil or repair a tire leak much less know how every time the engine is turned off
that driver would have to push a button to turn start/stop off each time the engine is restarted
Buyers with more money than good sense only like all the crap because manufacturers dream it up , spend a fortune on advertising all the " cool" toys their cars possess , then foist it on Joe Public who must have the latest digital and electronic device for an ego trip and fashion statement .
 
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