C5 / C6 and ULEZ

[Roscobbc]

I wouldn’t think any C4’s would be ULEZ exempt

No I agree......but there are reports of a few vehicles far earlier than the supposed qualifying years (so 2003 - 2005 petrol and 2015/16 diesel) qualifying for exemption with no modifications.
Being as the 'septics' were way ahead on clean emissions it perhaps follows that 90's yanks could in co/nox figures be within TFL's limits. Problems going to be finding someone to either measure the levels on a specific vehicle in a way that TFL will accept and/or quality OEM quoted figures. It's being done for motorcycles - so why no cars?
The big problem is TFL working from vehicle registration information and not OEM published figures. European OEM's will send (sometimes for a fee) conformity information......not sure about North American OEM's though.

 

[Roscobbc]

My 1999-built (2000 model year) EU-spec C5 was flagged as non-compliant

It would be interesting to compare actual OEM stated emissions figures against TFL's requirements.......there have been a few cases where individuals have taken them on re. incorrect application of TFL 'requirements'.

 

[Nassau65]

My friends mums got a Y reg (2000 or 2001) Volkswagen Golf GTI convertible, and that’s ULEZ compliant.

 

[Roscobbc]

My friends mums got a Y reg (2000 or 2001) Volkswagen Golf GTI convertible, and that’s ULEZ compliant.

When I was looking for a 'replacement' for my 2010 Ka diesel it was surprising the petrol vehicles that were compliant and perhaps those that were not. For example a '00 or '01 Mondeo (2 litre - perhaps automatic) was strangely compliant......however (and this is where the whole 'emissions' thing is all over the place) the RFL which is also based on emissions and engine capacity was in the over £600 bracket.........totally contradictory really to its ULEZ status.
When I was running company supplied cars the question which vexed me and was only partially answered by 'Deiselgate' was how could OEM's like BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes produce vehicles that each perfectly 'fitted' within the lower BIK tax band - whereas other OEM's like Ford, Renault etc etc were unable to market a range of vehicles that were tax efficient. Well, we know the answer - they didn't did they! - and fiddled the figures.

 

[rubyragtop]

Bumping this thread as I'm wondering if with the expansion of the ULEZ if anyone has actually got anywhere with this?

I appreciate the issue will only affect C5/C6 import owners it seems, and whilst I don't drive in the zone that often I do visit family every other week and it's annoying to have to pay the charge simply because the car isn't recognised as being exempt.

Having read the TFL pages it's a case of having the correct CoC and sending that in with the V5 to them. I just can't seem to find a reliable way of getting the CoC.

I have spoken with G.M's European manager and he states that the likelihood is that there is some small difference between U.S and U.K. emissions. He also informed me that G.M. are unable to provide a CoC for imported vehicles from the U.S.
I have a member who lives about 100yds inside the extended zone and owns an originally Californian registered C5 (2004). Californian cars are usually 'cleaner' than the rest of the U.S. but this Vette is still not exempt. This all stems from the lack of information that was entered with the DVLA for the V5 document which is what TfL go by.
TfL are not helpful at all, why would they be as it would be helping you and denying them revenue, or am I being cynical?

 

[Roscobbc]

TfL are not helpful at all, why would they be as it would be helping you and denying them revenue, or am I being cynical?

I see nothing cynical here - it is accepted generally by those of us within London (and increasingly with the even greater numbers of individuals who have to travel into London for work, trade and family reasons) that ULEZ is simply a corrupt money grabbing exercise by Khan and TFL. Out here on the 'outskirts' many rural side roads are now blighted by cameras looking to 'clock' any vehicle travelling into the area or even someone simply popping down the road to do shopping, go to the quacks or hospital or drop kids off at school. Due to an increasing number of cameras being defaced, removed and cut down TFL is employing no-name/no ID thuggish security people to additionally guard the electric camera vans that are frequently parked-up recording vehicles passing.

 

[C5Steve]

I have spoken with G.M's European manager and he states that the likelihood is that there is some small difference between U.S and U.K. emissions. He also informed me that G.M. are unable to provide a CoC for imported vehicles from the U.S.
I have a member who lives about 100yds inside the extended zone and owns an originally Californian registered C5 (2004). Californian cars are usually 'cleaner' than the rest of the U.S. but this Vette is still not exempt. This all stems from the lack of information that was entered with the DVLA for the V5 document which is what TfL go by.
TfL are not helpful at all, why would they be as it would be helping you and denying them revenue, or am I being cynical?

All C5s are ULEZ compliant for exactly the reason you stated, the fact that they were sold in California which has for a long time now had stricter rules on emissions than the rest of the US. The issue is exactly as you say, simply that US-imported cars weren't usually registered with the necessary information on the V5 and are "unknown" when it comes to the emissions part. Cars sold in the EU are usually registered correctly, hence why they're ULEZ exempt. There are sometimes anomalies with this but that's the usual situation.

The only way for a US car currently not exempt to be made exempt I believe is to provide a CoC which you've helpfully pointed out is unlikely. First person I've spoken to who's enquired about it so thank you, at least rules it out!

I'm sure if you were to point all this out to TFL they'd simply say they have no way of knowing if a US car is the same as an EU car without some form of paperwork from a manufacturer.

 

[Roscobbc]

An interesting 'anomaly' here - you buy a Euro spec' C5 or C6 and you are 'covered' for London's ULEZ - so a 'saving' of £12-50, possibly even £25 a day but (presumably) but you pay full rate RFL at £600+.
Buy a 'personal import' C5 or C6 and you'll have to pay the ULEZ but pay RFL at half the price?

 

[Pitre]

I'd just repeat that my 2000 EU spec C5 is NOT ULEZ compliant.... When I took it to Olympia earlier this year I had to pay the charge.
Sold new in the UK, not a personal import.

 

[Chevrolet]

I'd just repeat that my 2000 EU spec C5 is NOT ULEZ compliant.... When I took it to Olympia earlier this year I had to pay the charge.
Sold new in the UK, not a personal import.

So, originally sold by a Vauxhall dealer, like Rubyragytops (Colins') above, and has a CoC that says its certified for "Left Hand rule of road" i.e Drive on the left? Definitely not a mainland Europe car that a non Vauxhall dealer brought in new to sell in UK?

 

[Chevrolet]

I have spoken with G.M's European manager and he states that the likelihood is that there is some small difference between U.S and U.K. emissions. He also informed me that G.M. are unable to provide a CoC for imported vehicles from the U.S.
I have a member who lives about 100yds inside the extended zone and owns an originally Californian registered C5 (2004). Californian cars are usually 'cleaner' than the rest of the U.S. but this Vette is still not exempt. This all stems from the lack of information that was entered with the DVLA for the V5 document which is what TfL go by.
TfL are not helpful at all, why would they be as it would be helping you and denying them revenue, or am I being cynical?

Not surprised that GM Europe are unable to provide CoCs for US imports. Its not just the emissions. Dont know about the C5, but on a C6 (and C7) there are UK and Euro mainland specific lights on them. Seem to remember reading that a UK/Euro C5 has different wheels/wheel offset to a US car (to meet EU standards?)?

 

[C5Steve]

Not surprised that GM Europe are unable to provide CoCs for US imports. Its not just the emissions. Dont know about the C5, but on a C6 (and C7) there are UK and Euro mainland specific lights on them. Seem to remember reading that a UK/Euro C5 has different wheels/wheel offset to a US car (to meet EU standards?)?

There's no difference at all between EU and US sold C5s, apart from the lighting. As GM sold the Vette in the EU they know it's compliant with EU regs, they know what went into changing them for sale in the EU and know that it was only the lights that were changed over. They could absolutely provide a CoC there's just no motivation for them to do so it appears. I wouldn't even mind paying depending on the cost as it'd work out cheaper in the long run, there just doesn't seem to be an avenue to someone within GM to obtain the information.

 

[Chevrolet]

Try this ULEZ standards
My previous daily driver was a less than 50co plug-in hybrid and therefore exempt from all congestion charges - however I had to provide TFL with a copy of the manufacturers emissions compliance certification - this can be challenging to source from manufacturer or car dealer. Even though it was exempt for daily charges the system still monitors your movements and you still need to re-register it on an annual basis - the TFL website and its usability is CRAP........

In that TfL link they say the standard required for petrol cars is Euro 4 (Nox). Euro 4 was introduced in 2005 and according to something else I read, most if not all, cars registered after Jan 2006 and some earlier ones, will meet that standard. Per the AA website:

Euro 4 (EC2005)​

January 2005 (January 2006)
Euro 4 (January 2005) and the later Euro 5 (September 2009) concentrated on cleaning up emissions from diesel cars, especially reducing particulate matter(PM) and oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

Euro 4 emission limits (petrol)​ CO – 1.0 g/km HC – 0.10 g/km NOx – 0.08 PM – no limit

Does a C5 meet those emission Euro 4 limits, including the 0.08 g per km NOx? Colins experience above with his 2001 UK supplied car appears to say they do. I cant find anything on the web on C5 Nox emissions (?) Also wondering if DVLA etc and hence TfL have the emissions data on cars from pre March 2001 anyway? Its only cars registered from 1 March 2001 that are taxed based on their fuel type and emissions (C02)? If you look at the VSA website, that only shows the (Co2) emissions on cars from 2001.

 

[Rich]

There's no difference at all between EU and US sold C5s, apart from the lighting. As GM sold the Vette in the EU they know it's compliant with EU regs, they know what went into changing them for sale in the EU and know that it was only the lights that were changed over. They could absolutely provide a CoC there's just no motivation for them to do so it appears. I wouldn't even mind paying depending on the cost as it'd work out cheaper in the long run, there just doesn't seem to be an avenue to someone within GM to obtain the information.

Not quite true. There are at least 10/12 changes made to make them Euro compliant. That is why it is impossible for GM to issue a CoC for a US Spec car - it simply does not conform to Euro regs.

 

[Pitre]

So, originally sold by a Vauxhall dealer, like Rubyragytops (Colins') above, and has a CoC that says its certified for "Left Hand rule of road" i.e Drive on the left? Definitely not a mainland Europe car that a non Vauxhall dealer brought in new to sell in UK?

I just checked the CoC and confess it says 'Right hand rule' so maybe it was Euro-spec but potentially sold new in Europe, not the UK.
I understood it was sold new in the UK, so I stand corrected as I don't have the original sale paperwork...

 

[Chevrolet]

I just checked the CoC and confess it says 'Right hand rule' so maybe it was Euro-spec but potentially sold new in Europe, not the UK.
I understood it was sold new in the UK, so I stand corrected as I don't have the original sale paperwork.

I'm just wondering if any pre 2001 car is automatically "non compliant" per TfL, because they dont have the emissions data for those cars on their sytem/databases? See my comments above, and they dont expect them to be Euro4 compliant anyway? Your Euro spec 2001 C5 should have the same emissions as a UK car. Done a bit more "digging" on the Vehicle Cerification Agency website:
Select a search : Directgov - Car fuel data, CO2 and vehicle tax tools

Click on "Download Car Fuel and Emissions Info.

If you look at/download "Part B" (for 2001) rows 180 and 181 list the C5 manual and auto with seven emission measures for each. One says that the cars are Euro Standard 111 (3). However, if you look at the figures for CO (Column Q), HC (Column S) and Nox (Column T), all three are "within" the Euro 4 liimits above. Worth giving TfL a call/contact to point that out?

 

[Chevrolet]

I just checked the CoC and confess it says 'Right hand rule' so maybe it was Euro-spec but potentially sold new in Europe, not the UK.
I understood it was sold new in the UK, so I stand corrected as I don't have the original sale paperwork...

Is the CoC in English? The CoC for my C6 that Stratstone bought in from Holland, was in Dutch.

 

[Pitre]

Is the CoC in English? The CoC for my C6 that Stratstone bought in from Holland, was in Dutch.

CoC is in English as I got it from GM in the UK when I bought the car in 2016, and very helpful they were too.

 

[Pitre]

I'm just wondering if any pre 2001 car is automatically "non compliant" per TfL, because they dont have the emissions data for those cars on their sytem/databases? See my comments above, and they dont expect them to be Euro4 compliant anyway? Your Euro spec 2001 C5 should have the same emissions as a UK car. Done a bit more "digging" on the Vehicle Cerification Agency website:
Select a search : Directgov - Car fuel data, CO2 and vehicle tax tools

Click on "Download Car Fuel and Emissions Info.

If you look at/download "Part B" (for 2001) rows 180 and 181 list the C5 manual and auto with seven emission measures for each. One says that the cars are Euro Standard 111 (3). However, if you look at the figures for CO (Column Q), HC (Column S) and Nox (Column T), all three are "within" the Euro 4 liimits above. Worth giving TfL a call/contact to point that out?

Interesting and I'll look into it, however, it's a moot point as I never ever plan to drive into the ULEZ zone again!

 

[CaptainK]

Euro 4 emission limits (petrol)​ CO – 1.0 g/km HC – 0.10 g/km NOx – 0.08 PM – no limit

What's funny is that the DVLA have emissions limits for each of our cars to pass our MOTs. And at the MOTs they also measure our emissions too. So surely they could use that data to see if our cars are actually compliant?

Take for example my 1994 FTO. I haven't seen the emissions details for years now, since the MOTs have gone paperless and you don't get the readings, but I'm sure my previous paper MOTs had readings that show its less than the readings above. Definitely for CO, but can't remember the others. Might have to try and find some of the old paper MOTs. Fail that, its MOT is due soon so I might just ask them for the readings.